The UK Hotel Network - New logo/banner - and button in Logo Design

Held by morag

Summary

Status
won
Status Comment
Congratulations to the winner, J&R2!
Entries
47
Prize
$200
Details

A closer look at this contest

Created:
Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:52:35 +0000
Ends:
Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:52:35 +0000
Modified:
Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:40:54 +0000
Last Feedback:
Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:36:52 +0000
Comments:
15
Designers:
10
Feedback:
100%
Brief Summary

New logo required for www.ukhotelnet.com - and a simple 'blank' button which will be used as the basis for buttons within the site.

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The following designers have withdrawn all of their submitted designs: (why?)

Discussion

15 comments shown 15 total, most recent first

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  1. User
    morag
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    Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:09:59 +0000
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    By stating that YOU are not a selfish rip-off merchant, by inference are you not suggesting that J&R2 is? Can you look at yourself in the mirror and honestly see the face of someone who has NEVER used another design as inspiration.

    "Honestly, I was tempted to place my logo on a door hanger myself but I didn't."

    Maybe you should have. I'd have liked to have seen that. But you would have needed to create your own door-hanger background. Or safer still, used a key-fob. But I wouldn't have used a British flag if I was you, because that had already been suggested elsewhere. But you, not being the selfish person who would rip off another's work, wouldn't have done so.

    But the British flag is fair game, and door hangers are not. So key-fob it should have been.

    "Just wish we all learned some lessons here."

    Me too.

  2. User
    kroz
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    Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:50:59 +0000
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    for what it's worth.. I'd have to empathize with ruther. Why? Because the basic concept of the winning entry is practically taken from his with the addition of the door hanger. Making it a full flag doesn't change the fact that if the CH had not suggested to J&amp to create a similar logo as Ruther's, the winning entry wouldnt look anything like it is. I mean, just look at his first entries. Honestly, I was tempted to place my logo on a door hanger myself but I didn't. My entries may have not won but at least I know I'm not selfish enough to rip someone else's work off. Forgive me for butting in but as a member of sitepoint for quite a while now, I just can't stand to have a contest to turn as tragic as this and say nothing.

    as for Ruther, I understand that you are new here. Let me just tell you, these things happen here. You just gonna have to learn to deal with that and be the better man. And I agree with morag that that kind of language has no place here in the public boards.

    Just wish we all learned some lessons here.

  3. User
    morag
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    Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:26:10 +0000
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    Did I ask you to collaborate? Yes.

    Did I offer you and J&R2 $100 each. Yes.

    Did you agree? Yes.

    Was it then pointed out to me that I couldn't do this without offering $200 each. Yes.

    Did J&R2 then remove your 'half-flag' from his design. Yes.

    Is there any resemblance between his design and yours? I say no, you say yes, SitePoint say nothing. So I'll happily use the design. Any problems - speak to a lawyer. You'll get the best advice there.

    Have I broken Contest Holder guidelines (by encouraging a collaboration, but not offering the full prize money to both). Yes, it would appear so. And for that I am honestly sorry.

    Have you broken Contest Entrant guidelines (by posting personal attacks on a Contest Holder). Yes.

    Is this discussion over. Most definitely.

  4. User
    ruther
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    Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:55:01 +0000
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    if you already did know that you cant afford a payout for me and J&R2 of $200 dollars each, then you shouldn't have bothered collaborating the two concepts together, and you didn't even ask for my permission prior to it, i was just shock when it was used on j&R2 tag and decided not to object on it because i know your happy with it. and we did agreed , you, me, and J&R2 with the split of $200. didn't we? that is why i question your word of honor.

    J&R2 is a bloody good person to deal with ?I beg to disagree. i replied to his email about getting my designs mixed with his, and he stated that if i object he would withdraw his entry. so i did object and said that it still be your decision to make. and what happened? he made something new, the and some 1 whole UK flag with the print on bottom that looks a lot my concept.

    and did i not give you the changes you want to see?

    I didnt say the two half flags was my concept, i said my half flag modified into a whole flag. makes sense?

    yes this is becoming a sad joke. and you made this joke.

  5. User
    morag
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    Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:56:28 +0000
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    Ruther - This is becoming a very sad joke now.

    I liked your half-flag concept (you know, taking a flag and cutting it in half. Very clever concept). We even came to an agreement about using your half-flag. But it was pointed out to me, by 'ulahts' who is a kind of moderator (owner) of SitePoint, that collaboration was only possible if I gave you both $200. I explained to you BEFORE all of this that $400 was not an option for me, and you and J&R2 both agreed to share the $200. We all would have been happy.

    But as collaboration, even with the agreement of both parties, is not an option (as pointed out by ulahts) - then your half-flag design has been dropped (and has been for some time now). How the hell can you say that a full flag is really just 2 half flags joined together and that this was your concept?

    I'm sorry it turned out this way.

    But I take real offence at having my "word of honour" questioned. Nothing has been done that is underhand. In fact, the opposite is the case. Maybe I have been too bloody open and honest.

    I know you're pissed off about not winning after all this. But making personal slurs at myself, and at J&R2 is just not on.

    In your eyes, J&R2 may not be an artist. But he's a bloody good person to deal with. He gave me a product I liked and showed a lot of integrity in all dealings I've had with him (ulahts will be able to browse through the private correspondence between myself and J&R2 and say whether he agrees or not - although I'm not sure about the ethics of reading others' PMs - but he has my authority to do so if he wants).

    I'll be working with J&R2 again in the future hopefully. And will be happy to.

    Don't know if I'll "run the SitePoint gauntlet" again though.

  6. User
    ruther
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    Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:55:58 +0000
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    the logo is just the same concept as mine murag! with only added half the bottom of my design, you should be ashamed of yourself, taking my concept with a few modifications. i thought we agreed a half the price but you scammed me. this is your fault, considering that you are aware of the rules, two concepts into one? you shouldn't have done that in the first place if you know you cant pay the $200 x 2. where is your word of honor?

    And to J&R2 i hope your proud of yourself pasting my concept with with your effortless design. are you an artist????

  7. User
    morag
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    Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:39:08 +0000
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    Which is exactly why I asked ruther for his approval for J&R2 to use the half-flag - and to offer $100 for doing so. Seems fair. No?

  8. User
    Rambler001
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    Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:18:20 +0000
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    if you mix whiskey and drambuie and put it an a bottle to sell it you would need approval of both brands.
    there is the difference, you need it for a company logo and you are making money out of it. It's not a personal thing for plessure.

  9. User
    morag
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    Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:51:04 +0000
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    ulahts,

    I understand what you are saying - and if I had $400 I would happily award first prize to both designers.

    This is quite a fundamental problem, so I am guessing that it comes up fairly often. From my point of view, as a contest holder, this is how I see it (designers will probably have a different viewpoint - but here goes anyhow):

    What exactly are SitePoint contests? And what is the main aim? Is it to give designers, who may or may not have a platform of their own, somewhere to learn/develop and showcase their craft? And where do the wishes of contest holders come into this? Are we here to fund a training exercise, give encouragement/criticism and thereby increasing a designer's knowledge of what paying clients are looking for?

    Personally, I use Sitepoint for design work because it is an affordable way for me to get work done - and I like seeing different takes on a subject. This is the fourth contest I've had here - but from the very start it just hasn't felt right. Initially I asked for a logo and seven buttons (thinking that one button with seven diff captions on it would still count as just one button). This was pointed out as being not the case, so I reworded the contest - so that it was obvious that it was just the one logo and one blank button that I was looking for.

    Then the entries came in. First ruther's half-flag design which I really like. However, at some point later J&R2 submitted a design using a 'door tab' design. It has been suggested that this was simply using a standard icon, but it was the concept of using the 'tag' as the background for a logo that really appealed. However, nothing he could put on it was an improvement on ruther's half-flag design. So AT MY SUGGESTION he submitted a combination of the two.

    Now I can see your point about starting a contest with a first and second prize. But should I start every contest this way? What if I then find I like a combination of entries from 3 designers? Would I then be better of starting every contest with a first, second and third prize? Where should it stop? From a contest holders point of view it's now beginning to look a bit expensive.

    Would it be wiser just to say, behind closed doors, "Hey I like your design, but could you merge it with aspects of the design by X? We won't make it public - much easier this way." Certainly would be a lot easier, but it certainly would not be ethical in any way, and I wouldn't like to be party to any such dealings - or with anyone who would consider such. Hence the very open way I've stated that I like designs from two different sources.

    You say "If you have found a image and a designer that you like, we encourage you to ask him to develop his idea until you get a better result."

    But what if he can never match the task of bettering the other design? Do I just have to accept that there could be a better design, a design that I can see exists, a design that will be of use to no-one but me, but a design I just cannot have because it is part of someone elses work - and in itself is not sufficient.

    So I thought the fairest way forward was to contact both designers up front, suggest a merging of both designs, and see if both were happy to share the prize. Both were (still are?) - so we all get something.

    The alternative seems to be that I get less than I can see, one designer gets a prize, one designer gets nothing.

    There is another alternative which involves lurking and no financial cost - but I am happy to support what is a very vibrant community of designers. If we were all lurkers/plagiarists, Sitepoint would soon wither - and new talent wouldn't have such a cost effective way of learning their craft. But I'll leave the 'lurking/copying' to the rest (they will probably be reading this too).

    So that's the point of view of someone who pays to nurture new talent.

    In response to Rambler001: Fair point you have. Anyone would be gutted to see someone else steal their stuff and parade it as their own. But if the final product IS a pasting of different designs - is it no longer a design of its own? If you take whisky and Drambuie and mix them you end up with a cocktail known as a Rusty Nail (and very nice it is too I might add). But it is an original made up of two other ingredients. To me it still has design value - because somebody came up with the idea of mixing them. Mixing. There's the perfect example. If somebody takes samples from two different songs, and merges them into something completely different, and beautiful, is this not an original? Is the action of blending the two not art in its own right?

    It's why I offered a prize to both designers. Both had aspects of something, that when combined, would be bigger than the sum of both parts. And I knew one would be more than unhappy if his work ended up in another, winning, design.

    I write all this as a constructive exercise. For me, as a contest holder, and for you as designers. The first three contests I had here were very straightforward, and very rewarding - for both myself and, hopefully, the designers - I like to give feedback as I can see the importance in a learning environment.

    I hope the fifth contest is just as straightforward. ;)

  10. User
    Rambler001
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    Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:18:45 +0000
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    i received PM from J&R2 to explain it but i want to comment this:

    what if i put my logo on that door hanger? how would you feel?
    I know you are quit new here so i understand it but wait until someone steels/borrow your idea. You feel bad about it.

    this is a very very big NO NO NO. both contest holder and you. designing is art/concept/feeling, not a paste of different designs.

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